Balance & Beyond Podcast

Barbara Gustafson didn't set out to become a brain health educator.

Her journey began with leadership development, but everything changed when she witnessed firsthand how Huntington's disease devastated her family. After losing her mother to a stroke, Barbara and her siblings became caregivers for their father, uncovering a genetic condition that would later claim her sister's life as well.

The experience ignited a passionate mission: making brain health an essential part of every leadership conversation. As Barbara eloquently explains, our brain is "the supercomputer that runs the software of our mind." This distinction helps explain why some high-functioning, seemingly successful people struggle internally with burnout or overwhelm – their physical brain needs attention beyond just positive thinking or stress management techniques.

Through her work with clinicians, caregivers, and community leaders, Barbara introduces a transformative four-circle approach to brain health. The physical circle addresses biological functioning influenced by sleep and nutrition. The psychological circle encompasses thoughts and emotional intelligence. The social circle relates to relationships and team dynamics. The spiritual circle connects to purpose and meaning. This holistic framework creates a new language for discussing wellbeing without the stigma sometimes attached to mental health conversations.

What happens when ambitious women face chronic stress? Barbara describes a fascinating "baseball diamond pattern" of brain activity where the limbic system and basal ganglia become overactive, effectively taking the thinking prefrontal cortex offline. This explains why during moments of high stress, our decision-making abilities diminish dramatically. Her practical REGROUP framework offers accessible strategies for examining automatic negative thoughts (ANTs) and creating new neural pathways through consistent, small changes.

Ready to transform your relationship with your brain? Visit discovernextstep.com to download Barbara's simple tips for regrouping and improving your brain health. Remember: "Listen to the whisper, don't wait for the two by four."

Episode Transcript

INTRO: Welcome to Balance and Beyond, the podcast for ambitious women who refuse to accept burnout as the price of success. Here, we’re committed to empowering you with the tools and strategies you need to achieve true balance, where your career, relationships and health all thrive, and where you have the power to define success on your own terms. I honour the space you’ve created for yourself today, so take a breath, and let's dive right in…

Jo (Host) (00:21.148)

Welcome to today's episode of Balance and Beyond. And I am joined by Barbara Gustafson from the US who calls herself a brain health educator. So Barbara, let's dive right in. What is brain health and how is this different from mental health?

Barbara (Guest) (00:21.49)

Welcome to today's episode of Balance and Beyond. And I am joined by Barbara Gustafson from the US who calls herself a brain health educator. So Barbara, let's dive right in. What is brain health? And how is this different from mental health? Yes. And it sounds kind of a weird combination because I come from a leadership development, personal development background.

And I ended up tying in brain health, which is... how does that even fit? So it really goes back to kind of my personal story, my family story. But what I also noticed was people that I was working with, that I was teaching, a lot of them were, even though they had tools, they were stuck in a place of either overwhelmed or just not motivated at all. And so we need that healthy ebb and flow in between.

And I got really curious about that. And I started studying, you know, how brain is, you know, tied to our, you know, leadership, our decisions, even our friends. And what I found was for myself, I realized that my brain was struggling. Like I was often stuck in overdrive and I had a hard time. And at the time I was struggling with panic attacks and having a parent and sister with a brain health disorder.

I saw firsthand how it impact their ability to be successful, have relationships. And I didn't consider myself a smart person, but I was really fascinated and just really wanted to learn my psychology, how I'm showing up with my brain health. And I came across this book called Change Your Brain, Change Your Life by Dr. Daniel Amen. And it shifted my thinking on how

I viewed even my thoughts, my negative thoughts. I used to think it was my fault, but I realized where that line between taking responsibility and a functioning level existed. And I ended up having a brain scan back in 2017, because I was struggling with symptoms, not just panic attacks, but what they found was three mild injuries, PTSD, and it started to make complete sense why sometimes when I was trying hard it actually got worse.

Barbara (Guest) (02:41.038)

My anxiety actually grew. So that's kind of where it ended up and what I do is teach very basic education and tie it into leadership. And in my work with clinicians, caregivers, and community leaders, I always tie it back to their mission, their own cause, because a lot of them are overtired.

They're functioning well. They look well on the outside, internally they're starting to feel the signs of burnout or they're concerned that they might be headed towards a crisis. I really try to get to them before it turns into something more difficult to manage.

 

Jo (Host) (03:26.648)

Absolutely. And you gave us a little hint there of your personal story. Can you share any more about how you came to understand about the importance of brain health?

Barbara (Guest) (03:38.382)

So about 15 years ago, my mom suffered a stroke and passed away. And we were thrown into caregiving mode for my dad. And we knew that he was struggling with something. My mother hit a lot. In fact, she was a nurse and didn't tell us a whole lot, but it really unraveled what he was going through. And it turns out we have something called Huntington's disease in our family.

The best way to describe it is it's like having ALS, dementia, and Parkinson's all at the same time. But what it does is it attacks the brain nerves, the nerve cells. And so if it's in the area of where our behavior exists or our mood, it can really bring on behavior issues. So depending on what's happening.

That's my personal story. Just because that ended up being a 15 year journey with my father and my sister, unfortunately had the gene too and she passed away from it. So that's when I really just to be able to make sense of what's happened. I became very proactive with my own brain health because that's not something I knew if I had the gene, you know, that's something that I had, but I can also take precautionary things to take care of my brain health.

Thankfully, I don't have the gene and haven't passed it on to my children. Yet, at the same time, I really wanted to give hope in my own family and really strengthen that because there was a lot of mental health illness challenges in the family that ended up getting out in the public, which was not very fun.

But it really spoke to me and it lit a fire in me that I wanted to change the conversation around mental health. We don't have to be shamed of what's happened to us. And I love the phrase, and it gave me hope, is "Our history is not our destiny." So I really want people to break the chains and start a different conversation. And my hope is, and I've become a woman on a mission, is to make brain health a part of every leadership conversation, organization, community conversation.

Barbara (Guest) (05:49.238)

Because we talk about mental health so much, but it's not just mental. It's also brain functioning.

Jo (Host) (05:58.967)

And what could you share about, I guess, the most important lessons you've learnt about brain health and how that's distinct from mental health, what you wish we were talking about more?

Barbara (Guest) (06:17.154)

Yes, so they're both so important. And, you know, if you think about the brain as more of the structure, like the supercomputer that runs the software, our mind, they work hand in hand. They couldn't work well without each other. And what I've learned, and just an example in a story I learned about when I was getting certified to teach brain health is the story of Phineas Gage. And he was a railroad worker back in, I believe it's the 1840s in Vermont.

And he was a leader of his group and he had a steel rod one day and he was tamping down on a rock with gunpowder and that

rock exploded and the spear went through his face and his prefrontal cortex. And he went from, he actually survived, which was crazy. But when he returned to work, he went from being a leader to, you know, causing fights, swearing, having really bad character. He was fired. And a lot of scientists have studied that case since, and what they realized is there's a brain behavior connection.

And what they've now found in probably over 300 scans now is you don't have to have suffered a major brain issue to have challenges with the anxiety or depression or a head trauma. There's many things that can cause anxiety and how would you know unless you look or get assessed? So that's really when I began to really just have a different kind of understanding and it when it comes, you know, came to my family and also friends that had been diagnosed with different brain struggle, it became more personal.

Jo (Host) (07:52.152)

Absolutely. I can't believe that somebody survived having it brought in their head.

Barbara (Guest) (08:10.52)

I can't either. They they said there's even pictures, you can look on the internet, but there's like pictures of, or diagrams of them walking him to the town doctor, know, fear in the head.

Jo (Host)

My gosh, yeah. What you mentioned, you know, the role of brain health in leadership conversations. What do you think we need to weave in to those conversations so that we can have more perhaps holistic ones about how to show up as our best self when we are looking after others and leading others?

Barbara (Guest) (08:13.454)

Yeah, so I learned very quickly you can't walk into a group or an organization and just fire hose them with brain health information. I could talk about it all day. It really works.

That's when you really sit down and talk about what their needs are. How are their team, you know, how are they doing? Are they working together well in alignment? Are they able to take on opportunities that are coming up? you know, are they, do they have challenges coming up at really getting an assessment, but also teaching, you know, and I like to use what AIM in Clinics introduces and it's a four circle approach to brain health.

And you can really tie it to any population group of people. And it's not just the first circle is the physical, the biological brain. That's very important. But there's also the psychological circle. That's really our thoughts, what we're thinking about ourselves and other people, our confidence, our emotional intelligence, but also the social circle.

That's where we have our team relationships, how well we work together, are we celebrating our differences or really focusing on just the weak points of a team. And then the spiritual circle, which is really tied to what gives us meaning and purpose.

Because what they found is when we're really connected to our core values, our purpose, this beautiful reaction in the right part of the brain just lights up and opens up and opens up our creative circuits.

So all these four circles are really important and it's easier to create that conversation with a team and even ask them, know, what is it that you want, you know, for your health? What do you want for your social, you know, life, for your team and what you want for your spiritual life or your values, but also what do you want for your thinking?

Barbara (Guest) (10:31.414)

And just to open up that conversation starts to create more psychological safety and people feel more open to talk about their brain versus how they're struggling with mental health. There can be a lot of stigma around this topic, but have you seen, I certainly have seen in the last five to 10 years, a lot more conversation in public about whether it's anxiety or the importance of looking after mental health as much as our physical health.

Jo (Host) (10:44.984)

There can be a lot of stigma around this topic, but have you seen, I certainly have seen in the last five to 10 years, a lot more conversation in public about whether it's anxiety or the importance of looking after our mental health as much as our physical health?

Barbara (Guest) (11:01.002)

I am so encouraged that people are talking about it more. And my hope is that it really creates this huge ripple effect. Just because I know when I talk about it, you know, the first time I talked about it, it was like very uncomfortable, but it was such a relief. And then when you have people coming to you saying, I'm so glad you shared that because now I feel free to share what's going on. So sometimes that first step can be challenging and difficult.

But what I found more often than not, it creates a more openness and other people gain from that.

Jo (Host) (11:37.368)

Absolutely. If we talk about our brains and particularly women, you mentioned caregivers juggling all the things. How does our brain react to this persistent chronic stress that we hold?

Yeah, how does our brain react and what's your perspective on how we need to better manage ourselves?

Barbara (Guest) (11:57.73)

Yeah, I wish I could screen share my image because my scans, what it showed and the areas where it showed PTSD, also chronic stress, there's this interesting baseball diamond pattern. They call it a diamond pattern. And it goes from, if you're looking kind of straight down to your brain, it's from your prefrontal cortex back to your, they call it the basal ganglia and then to the sides. And so it's like a diamond pattern.

But what it shows, in my brain and a lot of people who are struggling with anxiety is there's an overactivity in that region, that back part of the brain, limbic system, basal ganglia. And when there's too much activity, which you want some activity obviously, but not too much in that, it tends to override and take your thinking part of the brain offline.

So that's why often if we're in a heated moment or we're just in that state of over realm and we're just, you know, in that overthinking, we can't think as clear. And it makes sense. And it really, for me, images really spoke to me because I'm like, my gosh, yeah, my brain is shutting down up here, but it's like lit up here. So there's too much with anxiety, there's too much activity in certain reaches of the brain that are taking over.

Jo (Host) (13:21.642)

Mm-hmm. And have you found that there's any potential or common triggers that I guess result in that overtaking and the downplaying of the prefrontal cortex?

Barbara (Guest) (13:22.1)

Mm-hmm. And have you found that there's any potential common triggers that I guess result in that overtaking and that the downplaying of the prefrontal cortex? Yeah, so it really is unique to each person. But if you think about your nervous system, I like to think of it as a heartbeat. Like you want a heartbeat going up and down. You don't want it to flat line. Like having an up and down is a good thing. The same thing with your nervous system.

You want a healthy up and down ebb and flow because we need certain stress hormones to get up in the morning, to reach deadlines. And we also need to come down. Like that is normal. So to even think that we don't need stress in our life, that can create a large number amount of stress. In fact, it did for me.

But what you really want, if someone is, let's say, "They're really up high, they're really wound up, a lot of anxiety." What they're gonna wanna do is look at what can calm their nervous system or calm their brain. So there's many different things that can calm. Music is a wonderful way to calm our brain, like almost instantaneously. I have an emotional rescue playlist on my phone and it has certain music.

Most of it doesn't have lyrics, but things that really just bring me to a place of peace. When you're able to bring your nervous system down to that, that's when you can have that conversation or make that decision. You don't want to have it when it's too up high or you're in a state of hypo-arousal. And the opposite, when you're too much at the bottom, we tend to disconnect. We tend to care less about things that were once important to us. And it's called hypo-arousal.

And so we need something to actually boost our brain or boost our nervous system. Exercise, it doesn't have to be hardcore or aerobic, but even just regular movement. Cause a lot of us have become sedentary in the last few years, but movement can start to release good, healthy amounts of the neurohormones that really boost our brain. Certain smells can help people.

Barbara (Guest) (15:46.829)

I'm kind of like, cause I go from sometimes being over-motivated or wound up to very, I have to find a healthy line. And so for me to actually boost my brain, I call someone. I call someone usually someone I know who loves to collaborate because that excites me. That brings me joy.

Also having a support team or care team. I have my own therapist that I reach out to when I feel like I'm kind of stuck either too high or low. Yeah. That support system is crucial, it? It really is. don't like to ask for help. You know what, Jo? I think probably early on, maybe three or four years in the journey with my dad, I didn't know how to ask for help. I was working full time and at that time I was working in Washington, DC, raising a family, commuting to help my dad. And I had this...

Jo (Host) (16:18.616)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. That support system is crucial, isn't it? So many women don't like to ask for help.

Barbara (Guest) (16:43.466)

I had the idea that  I could do it all. I don't know where it came from. I think conditioning, hustle harder, get it done. And I did it for a while and I did it well until I crashed and burned. And I think I had to go through that a couple of times for it to really ingrain in me that we are not meant to carry it alone. And to think that we can is not doing anyone around us any good because I wasn't able to be as good of a mother or caregiver as I could have been during that time. There's this phrase that one of my mentors said to me years ago, and I share this a lot with students, listen to the whisper, don't wait for the two by four. And I have not listened to the whisper.

And those whispers, think of the times when you just feel it in your center, in your body, and you just know something's off, or you're overworking, or you're trying to do it all, and you know that you need to take time for yourself. Those are whispers, but if we ignore them, they're going to become louder and louder and louder until you listen to them.

Jo (Host) (17:58.893)

Yeah, many of us have been whacked by multiple two by fours. Common thread in our community. But what do you find apart from waiting for the two by four, what helps women listen to the whispers and make space to actually hear what they really know?

Barbara (Guest) (17:59.319)

Yeah, so for a lot of the women that I know, and even, you know, because my inner circle is filled with amazingly powerful women, but they have a lot going on. They have a big calling, they're carrying the weight of the world, some of them are, and in our conversations, we recognize that often when we're so up close to our stuff, we just don't recognize when we need to step back, and somebody has to see that for us.

And so...Going back to that idea of having a care team or support system, even just one person that you can say, hey, you know me well enough when I'm overdoing it. And for some people, they get wound up. I tend to go silent. I go inward and I don't even realize it. And so I give them permission to call me out, check on me and just to say, hey, you doing okay? Or having a regular check-in.

And so there's four of us women in my tight circle. do that for each other. It's been a lifeline. And sometimes we've had to have some crucial conversations. But I think for us too is when we realize that when we take care of ourself, we're actually able to help more. And I just saw a thumbs up on the Zoom if anybody's watching.

Jo (Host) (19:53.746)

The universe says, go Barbara!

Barbara (Guest) (19:54.179)

The universe is go Barbara. Yes. But I almost have to trick my brain is by not taking care of me. I'm actually putting others at a detriment. And that kind of like woke me up. Like I have to see my brain has to see both sides, not just practice self care. I have to see what the detriment is to to wake myself up.

So I encourage women to come up with a phrase or a statement that stops them in their tracks to the point like, my goodness, if I keep going, then something's gonna happen, something needs to change. And there's this wonderful exercise that I like to use and it's called fork in the road exercise. And all that is is just imagine, and some people do this better closing their eyes, imagine a fork in the road.

And if the fork, if you go to the fork in the left, that's the path that you're on right now, and you have certain habits, behaviors, know, things that are happening that are not helpful, where are you going to be one month from now? Where are you going to be three months from now, a year from now, five years? And then I want you to look at the fork on the right. Let's say you change, you take tiny habits to make some healthy changes. Where is that going to put you in three months, one year, five years, 10 years?

And when you get really granular and you're able to really visualize that, that's usually when you're gonna get someone, you you're gonna get to the heart of their motivation. Why is this important to make this change in my life? And the realization is you don't have to make a huge leap to start taking care of yourself. Why not start something really tiny, like going to bed 10 minutes sooner tonight?

Like doing that over and over again and seeing how that makes a difference for the day ahead. A lot of us like flashy tools, you know, put something up and do it, just snap my finger, be like a genie and it's done. I don't know of a world where that works. I wish it was, but it really is about lifestyle change, but starting with just one thing. And I think anyone can do anything for one, you know, 10 minutes, two minutes, whatever that is.

Jo (Host) (22:16.652)

Yeah, I'm with you on the small baby steps. think our perfectionist in us wants to go hardcore. We, like said, we want the magic pill. Just make it all better.

Barbara (Guest) (22:17.022)

Yeah, I'm with you on the small baby steps. think our perfectionist in us wants to go hardcore. We want the magic pill. Just make it all better. what's got many of us into the place that we're in, yes. Exactly. What's one tool you would suggest if somebody can, they're not going to find 10 minutes, they're going to create 10 minutes or steal it from somewhere else that they could do to take that step to the right in the fork? Yeah, so...

Jo (Host) (22:30.84)

Exactly. What's one tool you would suggest if somebody can, they're not going to find 10 minutes, they're going to create 10 minutes or steal it from somewhere else that they could do to take that step to the right in the fork.

Barbara (Guest) (22:46.766)

I created this, it's called a regroup framework and each of the letters stands for an area of your life that you can examine. But the you and regroup stands for update your thinking. And often if we go about to make a change, but our thinking is still the same thinking that we're using, it's going to be harder for that change to take and the brain won't accept it. So the idea is to question your thoughts, your automatic negative thoughts called your ants.

And look at the ones, not all the negative thoughts, because we might have a lot, but what's a negative thought that you think about over and over again, that's tripping you up? It could be, I'm not cut out for this anymore. It could be, I'm just too overworked. But what is that one automatic thought that you want to change and question it?

And the way that you can do it is four simple questions, and then you create a turnaround statement. But if you take a thought and just say, is that thought true? You know, I don't have what it takes. Maybe for certain things. But the second question, is that thought true 100 % of the time, like all the time? And I would say, no, it's not. And the next question really gets you thinking about the emotion. How do I show up when I think the thought?

I don't have what it takes anymore. Well, if that was me and that's been a negative thought, I feel powerless. I don't feel as hopeful. I don't feel confident. And there's certain things that bring up in me. I start to question myself. I feel like I have imposter syndrome. And then the fourth question is, who am I without the thought? So now we're flipping it.

How would I be without that thought? I don't have what it takes. Well, I would trust myself that I would figure it out. I would not put it all on me. I would ask for help. And so your brain starts to think of other options. Other than that, I don't have what it takes. And then the last thing, create a turnaround statement. It can be a positive statement. It doesn't have to be.

Barbara (Guest) (25:10.954)

It could be, I will figure this out. Or I had what it takes for that thing, I will figure this out. So the idea is to really create something that connects with you because when you're able to draw that emotion, that's actually going to feed into your brain. Your brain's gonna really like that and start a new pathway, a new circuit. So that's an easier, but it's a very effective exercise. It's not something you have to force, but you can take that turnaround statement and just put it in the mirror, on your steering wheel, places where you can see it. I love that.

And I love the fact that they're ants, I always say, and not apps. They're automatic positive thoughts. It's not, I've got this. I'm amazing. They're always negative. Yeah. So, Barbara, this has been a lovely conversation and very enlightening to put a different spin on mental health and start talking about our brains.

Jo (Host) (25:45.708)

Hmm. I love that. And I love the fact that they're ants, I always say, and not apps. They're never automatic positive thoughts. It's not, I've got this. I'm amazing. They're always negative.

Yeah. So Barbara, this has been a lovely conversation and I'm very enlightening to put a different spin on mental health and start talking about our brains. Where can people find out more about you and the work you do?

Barbara (Guest) (26:10.658)

Where can people find out more about you and the work you do? Yes, so simply go to the website, discovernextstep.com. And if people want simple ways to regroup, just really easy things, I think there's 10 or 11 tips. You could scroll down that page and you can download a copy of

Jo (Host) (26:31.576)

Well, wonderful. Well, Barbara, thank you so much for your time today. You've given us lots to think about and I hope everybody can spot an ant in their brain.

Jo (Host) (26:32.002)

Well, wonderful. Well, Barbara, thank you so much for your time today, given us lots to think about. And I hope everybody can spot an ant in their brain.

Barbara (Guest)

I really enjoyed the conversation, Jo.