Balance & Beyond Podcast

Tired of the part-time trap? You're not alone.

While dropping to four days seems like the perfect burnout solution, many women find themselves cramming five days of work into four – making stress worse, not better.

Debbie Bailey, co-CEO of Four Day Week Global, reveals the startling truth: it's not about working less, but working differently. Drawing from global trials involving thousands of employees, she shares how organizations implementing a four-day work week saw burnout drop by an astonishing 71%, while sick leave decreased by 65% and resignations fell by 57%.

The secret lies in the 100-80-100 principle: maintain 100% of your wage and 100% of your outputs while working 80% of your hours. It sounds impossible until you realize how much time gets wasted in pointless meetings, inefficient processes, and scattered focus. When Debbie explains that 50 minutes of true focus equals 2-3 hours of normal work, you'll start seeing your workday differently.

Unlike individual part-time arrangements that often fail, the four-day week works because entire organizations reimagine productivity together. Leaders must walk the talk by respecting boundaries and embracing new ways of working. The result isn't just reduced hours – it's a fundamental shift in how we approach work itself.

Whether you're considering part-time work, already feeling stretched thin in reduced hours, or simply seeking ways to work smarter, this conversation will transform how you think about time, productivity, and what's truly possible in your career. From Lamborghini's factory floor to police services, organizations across sectors are proving that when we work smarter rather than longer, everyone wins.

Ready to move beyond burnout without sacrificing success? This episode provides the roadmap you've been searching for.

Episode Transcript

INTRO: Welcome to Balance and Beyond, the podcast for ambitious women who refuse to accept burnout as the price of success. Here, we’re committed to empowering you with the tools and strategies you need to achieve true balance, where your career, relationships and health all thrive, and where you have the power to define success on your own terms. I honour the space you’ve created for yourself today, so take a breath, and let's dive right in…

Jo Stone (Host)

We're sold the dream that going part-time is the fix for burnout. But what if it's not about working less, but working differently? In this conversation, I sit down with Global Flexibility Expert and co-CEO of Four Day Week Global, Debbie Bailey. She's seen the data, led the trials, and worked with companies around the world to redesign how we work. And she's here to reveal why part-time and flexible roles are still failing so many women. Whether you've already dropped to four days or are dreaming of it, this one will shake your assumptions and show you what actually works instead.

So today, rather than me share my views, I have an expert. I have the wonderful Debbie Bailey, who is the Co-CEO of Four Day Week Global. She's a specialist in reduced hours working and the future of work innovation. Onto the podcast to share her thoughts. And whether you've considered part-time, you'd like your entire organization to go flexible, or want to understand the cutting edge of work innovation, this episode is for you. Welcome, Debbie.

Debbie Bailey (Guest)

Thank you, Jo. Thanks for having me.

Jo Stone (Host)

Fascinating topic, four day weeks, particularly around burnout. I'm curious, based on what you've seen now, seeing four-day work weeks put across sectors, countries, obviously global reach, can a reduced working week serve as the circuit breaker for burnout so many women are looking for?

Debbie Bailey (Guest)

Absolutely, and that's an awesome question, Jo! And the short answer is yes. And I know that that seems really counterintuitive that we work less, we do our work in less time, and yet our burnout is going to go down? But the reality is that's what the evidence is showing! So all of the trials that we've done around the world and with individual organizations, there's always research attached to it.

And one of the biggest trial which trials, which was done in the UK, had over 60 companies in it, over 2,700 employees, and through that six-month period, those organizations adopted a four-day work week and burnout reduced by 71%. I know, it's huge! The stress went down by 30%, the sick leave taken by people reduced by 65%, resignations reduced by 57%. So these are all really big numbers and they're kind of a bit unbelievable when you hear them and you think, "I don't even understand how that can possibly work!"

But it's the magic and the process that goes into adopting a four-day work week in an organization that actually helps create the change, because it's not that one individual changing the way that they work, but the whole of the organization, or the whole of that department and team. And that's when you get those really significant changes. And they're consistent globally with all the organizations and the trials that we're doing.

Jo Stone (Host)

That's fascinating. Interesting point you raise one person trying to grow part-time versus an entire department or organization. Tell me, what are the differences? Because we have many women going, "Oh, I have to step back." But that can be really hard, can't it?

Debbie Bailey (Guest)

Oh, totally. It can be really challenging. And what I find often when I'm working with organizations, most of them have full-time staff, but they also have a group of part-time staff. Generally speaking, I find that the part-timers tend to be pretty efficient, in fact, more so efficient than the rest of the organization or the other teams, simply because they've had to be. They've got less time, they've become more focused, so they're actually ahead of the curve when we talk about adopting a four-day work week.

The challenge with that though is that people working in part-time roles, when the rest of the organization is working full-time, they don't necessarily reduce the amount of work they're doing. So what I often see, and we've all done it ourselves, I'm sure, where we're working in a full-time role and we want to drop that back to four days a week. But the workload doesn't change. We're not dropping our output or the capacity that we're required to have from one FTE to 0.8. We're actually maintaining that one FTE, but we're just trying to do it really, really efficiently and probably stressing ourselves out in the process by trying to make it all happen in those four days.

So then the outcome that we're looking for, which is that reduced burnout and the reduced stress and the better balance, doesn't actually happen, because we're not changing the things that we need to, and we're also not changing in sync with the rest of our organization. So part-timers on their own in a full-time organization, it's a really challenging situation.

Jo Stone (Host)

And the key thing you mentioned with the four-day work week, and it might be good just to clarify what that is. It's as you mentioned, them trying to do one FTE in 0.8. Tell me, what are the what are the premise, I guess the fundamentals of the four-day week?

Debbie Bailey (Guest)

Great question! So the way we work with the four-day work week is it works on a principle of 180, 100. So 100% is the the 100% of your wage. You get your full-time wage. You get to do your work in, for example, 80% of the hours, so that's the four days, but only on the basis that you can maintain 100% of the outputs. So we're not asking you to drop down one day and drop down a day worth of output. We actually need you to maintain the same targets and the same KPIs.

But the key here is that it can happen and it can be done. It's all about the whole of the  organization doing some change. Now, when we talk also about four-day work weeks, it's not necessarily all the same pattern. So I've got organizations that do the 180, 100. I've also got, for example, a fashion designer in New Zealand who does 190, 100 because they have a seven-day a week retail organization and that's what works for them.

There are some organizations where staff will work five lots of six-hour days, so that's 30 hours a week. That works better for the type of work they do and the clientele that they service, but it also sometimes works better for parents who are looking to drop kids off and pick them up, and so you've got that nice sort of rhythm. But the key with all of it is that there's a reduction in hours, maintaining the full time or the full contracted hours of pay, but also maintaining the full contracted outputs.

Jo Stone (Host)

So where do people cut? I guess is the question, Debbie, because whether you're thinking of going part-time or you already are. I know I spent hundreds of hours in useless meetings with no agenda. And I used to sit there thinking, this is such a waste of my time and I've got so much to do. In a four-day week is that what gets slashed? All the pointless crap that everyone has to sit through or at least shortened?

Debbie Bailey (Guest)

That's the absolute first stuff that we go for, most definitely. So the low-hanging fruit is always going to be meetings. We've all sat through, like you've said, you know, meetings without an agenda, meetings that took longer than they needed to, sitting in a meeting that you actually don't even need to be there, but you're there just in case. So we go through a whole process with organizations to identify what does success look like for them? How do they know if this is working for them? And what are the benefits, the motivations that they have for doing this, but also what is the stuff they need to protect?

So by going through that process, you can actually have conversations around, right? "Well, our customer service standards need to be maintained." "Our service hours need to be maintained." "Our bottom line or our targets, our KPIs, we still need to hit those." "But in addition to that, we want to improve our processes." "We want to see some process improvement." "We want to ensure that our staff are feeling like they're more empowered, that there's got better balance."

So those are some of the key ingredients an organization might say, "All right, well, that's what we want to see happen." They'll hand those parameters across to their teams and then say, "If you can work within these parameters and find 10% or 20% time, we're open to whatever suggestions you're going to put on the table." And typically we're talking things like meetings, we're talking about improving the way we communicate, we're talking about changing the way that we work and the workflows and the processes and things like that.

Because currently, what happens, and you and I, Jo, and I'm sure many people have already been through the process many times of how we redesign our work. You know, "Let's redo your role description, let's make sure it's really reflective of what it truly is." We go through those processes, we don't necessarily complete the projects or the tasks that are attached to it, because where's the motivation? If we do that and we identify more clearly what our role is, what do we do? If we get the work done, we get given more work!

And so the difference is when we talk about doing the four-day week with the reduced hours, the reward for getting your work done and doing it well and hitting your targets is the organization gifts you that time back. So it's that motivational piece that happens that if you're prepared to give me 10 or 20% of my week back, if I can do the job that you want me to do and do it well, I'm gonna find a way to redesign meetings and how I communicate in those workflows because that's worthwhile to me.

Jo Stone (Host)

A point that I think, I'm guessing, you can tell me has to flow in here is you mentioned one of the hundreds is output, like outcomes. It's not those leaders who are just focused on busy work and you know being at the desk for a certain number of hours. That requires a real shift in leadership, doesn't it? And this is something that you don't have to be pioneering a four-day work week to actually adopt.

Debbie Bailey (Guest)

Exactly. Great! The secret's out! You don't have to do a four-day work week to transition from thinking about hours to focusing on output and outcomes. And yes, leadership have to be on board. So the most successful organizations that I see do this transition, the leadership are open, they're transparent, they're prepared to change themselves, and they're also prepared to be open and have a look at how the organization operates and find those efficiencies.

Organizations where leaders aren't prepared to look at those things or they think, "We'll just do this because it's a nice thing for our team, they tend not to work." The trial often falls short. So you really do need to have that great leadership and also leadership that's prepared to hand over a level of autonomy to the team or empower the team for them to come up with these solutions.

You know, I've been CEO and senior executive of lots of different organizations. I'm not the expert on the front line. I'm not the expert in the warehouse or in the delivery system, but the people that work in that space are. So it's about handing over, "Here's the parameters, but you figure out because you're the expert in your own job, how could we do this better and differently?"

Jo Stone (Host)

Which some leaders are not prepared to do, right? Because they're absolutely number why that needs to needs to come as part of the equation.

Debbie Bailey (Guest)

Yeah. Or you do have leaders who think they're prepared to do it, but they actually, when it comes to it, they're not prepared to actually change. So I've said, "These are the key success factors, these are the things you need to do." "This is what I need from you as a leadership team." And they've all been very agreeable and said, "Yes, yes, yes, we can do that." And then when the rubber hits the road, they go back to their traditional ways and wonder why things aren't working or why their staff aren't taking their gift day.

And if you're not taking changing the way that you work, and if you're not trying to work more efficiently or adopt those different practices, you're not leading by example. So if you're supposed to be having every Friday or every second Friday off and you're working and sending emails to your team, you're sending a message to them that it's not as important as I actually said it was. There's there's no clarity that you definitely get this, even though I'm working. So there's a lot of mixed messages that can come from poor leadership in that space, most definitely.

Jo Stone (Host)

And what was under what you just said there is a "B-word" that has to come with anybody, I think, and so many women struggle with this. Talk to me about "Boundaries", Debbie, and what role do they have? Because that is about, you know, if you're working on a Friday when you're not meant to be, or you're meant to take a day off, or you're meant to be sick, and you're still punching out messages. What needs to happen around boundaries and flexibility?

Debbie Bailey (Guest)

They're critical now, but they're even more so critical when you're actually trying to change the way that you work and change your behavior. So when you go through a transition like this, we're actually asking you to rethink processes and systems and workflows, and we're asking you to do your day job and still hit those targets and KPIs at the same time. So there's quite a lot going on during this preparation phase before you even turn it on. Particularly though, once you turn it on, the boundaries really come into play.

So what we find is if you can do, and you've talked about this stuff before, Jo, you know, if you can do, say, 50 minutes of focus time, that's the equivalent of two to three hours of normal work. If you actually are doing focused on something and you get distracted, so bird flies past the window, notification pops up, Slack message, something happens. It takes you 23 minutes to get back into that focused mode.

So what we're doing is we're trying to find that 10% to 20% that you're looking for on a reduced work hour week, and in order to do that, we've got to cut out this mess, you know, cut out the crap that you're talking about, Jo and actually get really focused. Now, the only way we're going to start to make that change is by holding the boundaries.

So we all have calendars, we all have diaries, and how often do we load stuff up in there and have these lofty ideals that I'm going to work on this strategic thing over here on this day? And then we don't. And then we we catch ourselves, "Oh, well, I'll just do that after dinner, or just do that while I'm driving home." One of the beautiful things that happens with the four-day work week is if we can hold those boundaries and we hold the structure that we build for ourselves, we actually create space, which is again, counterintuitive. We're creating space for us to breathe, to rest, but also we're creating space for creativity.

So when you actually have blocks of time, you're able to actually identify, I'm going to work on that strategic project. You know, that important but not urgent thing that you never quite get to. That's the sort of stuff that happens. And that's how we come along in leaps and bounds when we start to work in that different way. But boundaries are absolutely critical from an individual perspective, but also from a team.

So often the work I'm doing with people is about what are the boundaries we're going to hold, but then also how are we going to hold each other accountable for it? Because you need to have a reasonable dialogue between leadership and managers and frontline staff to be able to call each other on it, particularly in those early stages of the behavioral change.

So without a doubt, boundaries are critical to make this work, but also equally, is giving yourself a bit of grace. So when you go through a process like this, we don't get it right the first time. I didn't get it right the first time I implemented this for myself. In fact, I didn't get it right the first two or three times. And so what you need to do is stop, reflect, figure out what happened, figure out what you're going to do differently, and then have another go. So it's that iterative, continuous improvement type of process.

Jo Stone (Host)

I wonder how much, particularly for women who are listening to this podcast, juggling all the things, you know when your identity is very much attached to your work and to how much you can produce and to being busy and being wanted, do some people struggle with being gifted a day off and suddenly go, "Oh my God, I don't know what to do with it!" And then just end up filling it with shopping and and then they don't actually find the peace and the rest they're looking for?

Debbie Bailey (Guest)

I think the the initial challenge that people have is actually reducing their hours. So those that are highly identified with the role that they do, and sometimes there's that "martyr aspect" that comes into it, you know, the work, the organization, can't survive without me. So that element comes into it.

And so people who were traditionally working 50, 60 plus hours a week, I know I'm not gonna get them back to 32 hours, but I do encourage them and we coach them to try and get them back, you know, to 10% less or 20% less. And you're absolutely right. When you're faced with that Friday and or that Monday or whatever it happens to be, and traditionally I know where I'm going, I know I'm doing work, it can be hard to figure out, well, what am I gonna do to use that time?

And so part of the process is also thinking ahead, doing some planning, having your own foundation week. And the foundation week should be all about, "What's the stuff that fills our cup?" "What's the stuff that energizes us and puts us back on recharge?" So if that's the yoga class, or if that's the pottery class or the something that you've always been wanting to do, or going for a coffee and reading a book by yourself. If that's the thing, then you book that one thing in on that day and force yourself to do it.

So again, it's back to those boundaries and the discipline to making sure that it happens. But it absolutely is a challenge. We do identify really closely to our work and also the fact that we are really good at juggling everything. So some people will spend that Friday or that Monday going to their child's school and volunteering at school. And that's okay, because if that recharges you, that's fine!

So yeah, it can be a challenge to figure out what that thing is, but we give ourselves a little bit of time to figure that out. Generally speaking, when I see people go through this transition, they're a bit uncomfortable for the first two or three weeks of it. Um, but we encourage people to force themselves to take that gift day and then they start to get used to it and they get a taste of it. And it's the day that you do your medical appointments, it's the day that you go and visit your parents and help them out to do something. So it becomes that flexible day that you can do those types of tasks, and then you've still got the weekend with your friends and your family.

Jo Stone (Host)

I love the way it's called a gift day, not a day off, so it's very intentional language as well.

Debbie Bailey (Guest)

Very intentional, very intentional. So you don't just get this, you actually have to earn this. The work has to be done in order for it to happen. And look, the reality of the four-day work week is very few organizations, you get it every week because work happens, peaks and troughs happen. There are certain times of the year, you know, end of financial year for some organizations are really tough, or for certain departments are really, really busy.

So there's a level of acceptance that I'm going to get this most of the year, but there are certain times that I have to actually come in, it's all hands on deck to get the work done. So it works on that principle, you earn it. Once the work is done, then you get to take the time.

Jo Stone (Host)

I'm guessing that's why Friday is more commonly the day off, because you've proved through the week that you've earned it.

Debbie Bailey (Guest)

Yeah, yes and no. It also tends to work from a cadence perspective. So there's a lot of research out there that shows just how much doesn't happen and doesn't get done on a Friday, particularly on a Friday afternoon. So for some organizations, it's obvious, but not all organizations will have the same people off on the same day.

So we work with a police force in the US. They're a 24-7 crisis service. And so people aren't all having a Friday off, it's actually on a different rotation. But it's what works one for the organization first and foremost, and then what works for the individuals.

Jo Stone (Host)

So, based on all your knowledge of flexibility and how the world is changing and AI, what advice would you give someone who would love to adopt this, would love to be able to cut the crap of the meetings, to actually focus on what matters, but perhaps they're a lone wolf in their organization? What can they learn from you and your experience?

Debbie Bailey (Guest)

So, look, if you're a lone wolf in your organization, you're going to have a really challenging time trying to get the whole of the organization to adopt this. But what you can do is start having conversations with leaders or managers or executives who actually have an interest in flexibility, have an interest in return on investment. Because you know, when we talked about the numbers about, you know, reducing burnout, reducing stress, reducing absenteeism, there's a financial return to organizations for this.

So you can start having conversations with leaders around that, particularly if you've got staff attrition challenges. This is something that can actually turn that around for you. The other thing is making sure you've got the right leaders in the organization, so an appetite for change, an appetite for a level of risk and doing things differently. As individuals, it can be tricky to implement this on your own, so going to part-time, like we talked about, and actually putting those boundaries in place and sticking with them can be really, really challenging.

But there are a lot of organizations out there that are starting to adopt this, that are starting to think about it and sometimes the four-day week is just a one step too far. So what you can start to do is "What's something else we could do differently?" So, "What's our flexible work policy looking like?" You know, "What flexibility do we get from the work from home, the breadth of hours that we're able to do the work?"

Then the next ability that you've got is to start to introduce some of those efficiency measures. And so looking at a return on investment type of analysis when you look at the meetings, you know, "What does a typical week look like for people?" "How much time are we spending there?" "What would it look like if we did things differently?" So there's opportunity to certainly influence within your own organization.

And if you really want to head down that four-day work week path, then you want to make sure that you've got the right leaders on board and having those conversations about the return aspect, but also what this can do to improve that staff attraction and retention, but also improve the productivity of the organization.

Those are the factors that they're most interested in, more so than the well-being impact for staff. The really cool part though is that if we focus on productivity and outputs and what works for the business, the well-being outcomes just naturally follow. And they have done with every single organization that I've worked with. So lead with productivity and the outcome will still be that improved stress and burnout and reduced negativity.

Jo Stone (Host)

Yeah, I love what you said there about it. This has to be where you can top down. I did see a note, I think ANZ, one of Australia's largest banks, have come out and said that all meetings have to have an agenda and outcomes, otherwise, they're to be declined. And no PowerPoint pack is to be more than five pages. And can you imagine how many hours less those poor people I spent weeks and weeks finishing one PowerPoint pack? I think version 87 was what I got to.

So you talk about productivity gains, and I'm sure so many women will be listening to this going, I could tell you exactly where 20% of my time is wasted. But it's having the courage, isn't it, to have that conversation with your leadership, whatever that, whatever level you're at, and saying, "Hey, what could even just our team do?" "What's your sphere of influence to cut the useless meetings to halve the time?"

Even an organization I was in, we changed the default setting in Outlook from 60 minutes to 45. And so suddenly meetings actually became more effective, and you got 15 minutes back from everyone. So there's even changes you can do to just squeeze that give you back some time, aren't they?

Debbie Bailey (Guest)

Absolutely. And if you put it forward as an idea, you could be a test case, you know, the prototype for the organization. And as you said, "What's the sphere of influence?" So have a look at your own team and what could you do differently and how could you work and how can you rewrite those meeting and pro communication protocols for your team?

Do your pulse survey beforehand, do it during the trial, and then do it at the end, and then demonstrate the return for the organization. That will take you one step closer to demonstrate that you can find these efficiencies and potentially get some of that time back as well.

Jo Stone (Host)

And above all else, boundaries. F or you, and you know, for everyone else.

Debbie Bailey (Guest)

And it's true. And you know what? We we practice them and then we get good at them, and then we drop the ball. And then we've got to pick it back up again and have another go. So I work with organizations that have been doing the four-day work week for three plus years, and we're still going back to the boundaries piece. It doesn't matter how long you've been doing this. We're human, we get comfortable, we forget, or we give too much, and particularly in those four-purpose spaces, that tends to happen a lot.

So boundaries is always going to be a topic. It's never going to go away. But also reminding ourselves of it and being a little bit kind to ourselves. When we drop the ball or we forget, if we're feeling a bit stressed out and burnt-out, there's probably a reason for it. So go back and have a look and see what's been going on and see how you need to structure your week differently to get things back under control.

Jo Stone (Host)

Some amazing gems of wisdom, Debbie! Thank you for joining us. And whether you're, like I said at the start, part-time, considering part-time, want to work more innovatively, then there are so many good hints and tips. Debbie, any final words for anyone around flexibility or where this is all going?

Debbie Bailey (Guest)

Look, I think there is definitely a growth in the market. We're seeing more and more different sectors that are doing this. We've got Lamborghini in manufacturing that are doing this for their floor staff, their production workers, as well as their office workers. We're seeing police services and local governments.

So this is definitely coming. And what you can do is start to have that conversation within your own team. And if you feel like you've got some insights or you might have some opportunity in your own organization, start exploring it and seeing how this might actually have a positive impact for your team, but also, for the productivity in your own organization and the bottom line.

So if there's a chance that you think it might work, definitely explore it and see where it might go. There are some amazing wins and benefits that can come from doing something like this when you do it well.

Jo Stone (Host)

Awesome, Debbie. Well, thank you so much for joining us. We're all for productivity gains with a nice, beautiful side of wellness and peace and calm. So absolutely, thank you for coming, Debbie!

Debbie Bailey (Guest)

Thanks so much, Jo. I appreciate it.